Parallel Entrepreneur with Mark Cleveland

Mark Cleveland (00:00)
I'm your host, Mark Cleveland, and I'm about to introduce John Cerasuolo. He's a bright, shining lantern in leadership, acquisitions, and business transformation. As president and CEO of Leap Partners, he's rapidly building a premier home services company in the Southeast, having successfully acquired 21 HVAC and plumbing companies since launching this operation in 2022. Before that, John led ADS Security, growing through significant acquisition activities into the 17th largest security company in the United States before its sale in 2019. Beyond his corporate success, John is deeply involved in policy and free market advocacy, serving as the chairman of the board for the Beacon Center of Tennessee and advising various think tanks. His expertise in mergers and acquisitions, turnaround management and leadership development has made him a sought after voice in business strategy. So John, welcome to the podcast.

John (01:06)
Well, Mark, it's great to be here. and having been friends for many years, it's a real treat to have a chance to do this with you.

Mark Cleveland (01:12)
First of all, I'm curious, you started your sort of adult formation experience at the Naval Academy. Not very many people get into the Naval Academy. Tell me, how did that prepare you for leadership later in life and where you are today?

John (01:27)
That's a great question. a very formative experience having the chance to serve in the military generally, but in particular, the experience of really transitioning abruptly from high school civilian life into a military environment at the Naval Academy. There's a lot of things that experience teaches you. One is it really demonstrates in a very clear way the importance of building a team and having people around you that you can count on to achieve the kind of success you need to achieve when you're working together with a group. The military experience is just a great way to really learn that, not just by reading a book or hearing somebody say it to you, but by living it day to day. So it was a great experience, the four years at the Naval Academy, but even just as significantly the years I spent in the Navy on a ship in kind of stressful environments at a very young age with a lot of responsibility and the chance to learn from some really exceptional leaders that I had the real great fortune to serve with. So it was a great experience. Of course, it doesn't teach you much about kind of the business world. That's all really new, but the fundamentals of success in a military environment or in business, the fundamentals are very much the same. It's about leading with a foundation of integrity, caring about your people, developing your team, and motivating the folks around you to do things they didn't think they were capable of doing. That consistency is there from both the military experience and my business experience.

Mark Cleveland (03:09)
So John, we have had opportunities to work together when you were at ADS Security and when they sold that company, you became the CEO for the acquiring organization. And there was an idea that was being planted and germinating in your head. Let's talk about the genesis of Leap Partners and what is Leap Partners?

John (03:29)
Lead Partners is an exceptional organization of some really talented people building an HVAC and plumbing platform across the southeast of the US that we're building by acquiring exceptionally well-led businesses. And as you mentioned, we've purchased 21 so far. We're closing on our 22nd in a few weeks. And the idea for it really did germinate when we sold the security business when you and I first met. We the leadership team there had run that business for 12 plus years together. We did 45 acquisitions building, in that case, a Southeast business of home and business security monitoring. And when we sold it, as often as the case, we sold it to a much bigger company. And something was missing, among those of us that stayed for a little while. I stayed for six months. And a bunch of us kind of went our separate ways for a year or so. And then at one point we just had a conversation and none of us were as happy doing what we were doing as we were when we were building that company together. And we just decided nothing would be more meaningful to us and have a chance to work together again and do something new and start something fresh. And that was kind of the first element of thinking about what kind of business we wanted to start, doing a bunch of research, identifying the market, putting a business plan together. And that eventually resulted in launching Leap Partners in early 2022. So what we're trying to do, so there's a lot of folks that go down this path, in particular in HVAC and plumbing there's quite a few, but in lots of the trades there's big...investor backed groups that are trying to do the same kind of thing. Our approach is a little bit different in that, as you mentioned, we try to find well-run businesses, not buying fixer uppers. That's just not our game. There's nothing wrong with that, but that's just not where our skill set is. We buy well-run businesses that are well-led, that have owners that are interested in partnering with us and continuing to work with us. So when we buy a business, the owner continues to run that business under the same brand name. And we buy businesses with strong cultures, but our goal is to improve the overall culture by bringing together these great businesses and providing them first and foremost, providing them with the support they need to more aggressively grow. So that support takes the form of what we've described as back office activities that entrepreneurs, these small business owners really don't like to do. It's, you know, the things like accounting and payroll and taxes and insurance and benefits and marketing and recruiting and fleet management, all that kind of stuff that gets in the way of them spending time with their employees and their customers. That's kind of element number one. The second element is having these guys work together. So you've had the chance to join us at one of our events and see kind of the chemistry, the magic that is putting a bunch of really smart people who are curious and open to ideas to improve. That's a really important consideration for the owners of businesses that we target. We want the kind of guy who's in, when he's in a room with 10 other business leaders doing the same kind of thing, can't wait to soak up everything he can and take some ideas back home. And so, so we spent a lot of time doing just that sharing ideas, sharing best practices, helping each other out and building a culture where that is just part of what we do every day. And it's not just at the senior management level. But we connect folks throughout the organization in different parts of our business to help them learn from each other, whether it's an office manager or a field supervisor, whatever the case might be. And that's where the real differentiation, I think, for us comes in. And it's what makes Leap I think, a special organization.

Mark Cleveland (07:31)
How do you identify opportunities? How do you decide which locations, which businesses are worth pursuing? Because there's a cost to the pursuit. Not everybody is for sale. This is a very fluid environment.

John (07:45)
Yeah. So, so we're very deliberate about how we do that. So first and foremost, lot of folks that do what we do wait for brokers to, to bring them deals where, where an owner makes a decision to sell and puts his company on the market. While we look at deals like that, that's not where our strength is. Our strength is in sourcing deals We have a couple of ways to do that. We spend a lot of time communicating and getting to know business owners. And we work with some, we call them finders or partners that help us, that understand our business, know what's different about us, and help us to connect with business owners that would be a good fit in our culture. And we do have some other criteria. So you mentioned a few other things about the criteria for these owners. While geography is important, we're limited in the Southeast. And within the Southeast, certainly there are some markets that are more attractive than others. But the primary consideration of whether we pursue a business or not is the quality of the leader. I will take a business in a less attractive market with a great leader over a business in a great market with a not so good leader any day. What makes our business tick is exceptional leaders and that is the start and finish of us qualifying a good business. So, we spent a lot of time out meeting business owners, getting to know them and kind of putting them through this thought process of, is this someone who, when they join our room of folks in one of our meetings, are they going to be really curious and interested to learn and be willing to take ideas back? Cause there's a lot of good entrepreneurs that don't have that in them. They, you know, there's some folks that just are very set in their ways.

Mark Cleveland (09:12)
Me

John (09:36)
It's worked for them and they're not really open to change and and those can be very successful leaders, but that's not the kind of person that's going to match well with what we do.

Mark Cleveland (09:46)
Now you talk about strong leaders and companies with strong cultures, and yet you also at Leap Partners have a strong culture. How do you augment, overlay, integrate those cultures? Were they the same to the begin with? What's the challenge there? What's the secret sauce?

John (10:05)
Yeah, so I think first it has to be cultures that are aligned, aligned in terms of principles and values. If you have that, then this magic works. And the way then that we... we align is honestly by, we talk a lot, we share ideas, we share stories. And up front in all of our conversations are the principles that we run our business by. And um, it takes time. So we get our senior leaders together face to face three times a year. We have a group that we call rising leaders, which is kind of the next level in all these organizations. And we meet with them regularly. We do face to face meetings with them three times a year. So it takes an investment in time, takes an investment in resources. But if there's maybe one, not secret, but if there's one thing that I think really moves that forward is by making sure every leader in the organization models the behaviors that you want the organization to follow. People, as you know, people listen a lot more to what you do than what you say. And you can have the principles and values written down on a piece of paper. But if people don't see the leaders following those, it's empty. So I'm very fortunate to have a leadership team that embodies the values that we hold dear and that we are uncompromising in maintaining. And they model that enthusiasm and energy and cooperation, every engagement they have in every one of these businesses at every level of those organizations. And when folks see that, good people are inspired by that. And you get this energy that comes from folks being in an environment where they're where they're led by folks that inspire them. And then they in turn inspire the folks around them and it just kind of builds on itself.

Mark Cleveland (12:05)
So during critical moments, challenges really, how do you ensure that each business receives adequate attention?

John (12:13)
That's challenging for a couple of reasons. Number one, because geographically we're spread pretty far and wide. We're as far north as West Virginia, as far south as Florida, from Alabama to North Carolina. So that can be challenging. What we committed to do early on was, and this was challenging when we were really small, was invest in the leadership team so that we had enough leadership talent to be able to provide the kind of support that these locations needed. But as we've grown, of course, that's a constant never-ending battle. You know, the one benefit I have is I've got a leadership team that has now done 60 plus acquisitions together. So, so every one of them, you know, you have challenges every time you do a deal and you're integrating a new business and there's lots of bumps along the road. I have a team that has experienced a lot of that. Uh, and they're very intuitive about when they sense that problems are happening. They're quick to react. They don't wait around for somebody to tell them what they do. They jump on things and, and get on them as soon as they identify that, uh, that somebody needs help. And so while we have those kind of challenges, I think we address them pretty well, mostly because of the strength of the team, the leadership team.

Mark Cleveland (13:28)
So tell me about the first time you experienced an exit rather than being the guy that was acquiring and what did you learn from that? What was it like?

John (13:36)
Yeah, so my first exit was the one at ADS Security. We were private equity backed and had a relationship with a private equity firm, really a wealthy family in Pittsburgh that was for many, many years, 20 years, a whole period for this business. And we got to the point where it was just too big for their portfolio. And we started the process to sell and none of us on the leadership team had been through an exit before. So we were fortunate in that we made a decision to partner with a really good banker on our exit. We actually had him join our board for a year, maybe eighteen months before we started the process. We knew we were going in that direction so, so we had this investment banker on our board. We knew he was going to handle our exit. He got to know us really, really well, and he coached us through a lot of things that were new to us. So, you know, if I had one learning to take away, it pays to have partners that can help usher you through a very unique process of selling your business, where if you don't have that kind of advice around, advisors around you and that kind of advice to help you, it can be really challenging to have to muscle through it for the first time on your own. So don't be afraid to early start building relationships with folks that can help you.

Mark Cleveland (15:04)
So in reflection, where did you waste energy in the process and what would you bring more attention to in your next exit?

John (15:11)
One of things I learned is that when we were exiting, there were some things that it was that obvious in that process was important to a potential buyer that we didn't make a priority out of early on. So I think the biggest thing I learned was what we describe now as "begin with the end in mind." So when we started Leap, the first thing we did was think about what kind of company do we want to build? And that was informed by a lot of conversations with investment bankers about what is it that motivates buyers? What are buyers really interested in? Because it doesn't do a lot of good to time developing capabilities that are not of interest, that don't further the business, that are not interest to potential buyers. So we spent a lot of time building a template for this is the kind of company we want to be when we get to the point where we're ready to exit. So I think we would have been much better off at ADS had we done that a little bit better, but those lessons were valuable in starting Lead Partners.

Mark Cleveland (16:22)
You know, I've got some experience at Kensington Park Capital where we have some HVAC owners on the market, roofing company owners on the market, people coming looking for some support as they navigate their exit. And I think the whole idea of the right fit, it's up to the advisor and it's up to the entrepreneur who's representing the interests of the company and their family and all their investors. It's up to everybody to find the right fit. Everybody. It has to be what a friend of mine recently called an "omni-win."

John (16:54)
Mm-hmm

Mark Cleveland (16:55)
I think that that can be gracefully disengaging. That can be carefully and thoughtfully diving deeper. That can be spending time with the people that you're going to work with and carefully interviewing the other organizations that have been acquired and brought into yours. What do you find in due diligence that's the most challenging for you as an acquirer?

John (17:17)
So due diligence is a challenging process for a couple of reasons. Number one, you're trying to keep it reasonably short as possible because an extended diligence gets expensive and really can wear on both parties, but you want to make sure you are thorough in validating all the things that are important, all the assumptions that you made essentially about the business in the negotiating process. And that's all of course, based on information that you receive from a seller. So, and you want to come out of it - well we do is very important for us since the owner is staying and going to be a partner - that we come out of it in a cooperative framework and enhancing the foundation that we're building together with them for our future growth together. So similarly to what I said earlier, what's important for us in executing a successful diligence is having a strong team. And in this case, it's, of course, we use some partners for legal diligence and for accounting diligence, but they have to be aligned with us on what's important to us, how we want our partners to be treated, and to ensure that when we emerge out of diligence, we are ruthless in ensuring that we have validated all the important things we have to validate, but not poison the relationship with the seller in the process. And there's a lot of diligence that the seller gets to the finish line, they feel like they've just been hung out to dry. And that's not the kind of energy we want to bring to day one when we're partners together. So again, it depends on having a strong team that's done it before, that's savvy about understanding of what to look at and savvy enough to know the kind of things that are not really necessary that often take a lot of time, create a lot of stress and delay that diligence process.

Mark Cleveland (19:07)
So when you have a success, and I would think that acquiring the 22nd company and then the 23rd, I'd be curious to know, how do you celebrate?

John (19:17)
Geographically, it's hard because we're not together all the time. But we take advantage of when we are to really share in the enthusiasm we have for what we're doing, to reflect with each other on the joy that work brings us and how happy we are doing what we're doing. And just sharing that kind of energy is just a great way to celebrate. I can't tell you how often we stop and tell each other how happy we are. Think about how things could have been different had we not started this business, comparing how happy we are today with how we were when we were working for somebody else and doing different roles. So for us, a lot of that celebration is just reflecting on the joy that what we're doing brings to us personally.

Mark Cleveland (20:02)
The truth of the matter is I was in your meetings at ADS. I was in your meetings at Leap, listening to people who don't know me from Adam, talking about how happy they are and talking about how much they're learning and acknowledging how much they had to learn that they didn't realize they had to learn and how excited they are about learning. I mean, you have just created a learning bomb in that organization.

John (20:26)
You know, funny thing is it's really hard to convey that to investors, right? Most private equity investors would say, don't, okay, that's great. What are your numbers last month? You know, you met some of our investors, they get that. They know that that's the, that's the sauce. That's a secret sauce that's going to result in success financially down the road.

Mark Cleveland (20:40)
Yeah.

John (20:51)
But yeah, it's hard to find people that really appreciate that, folks like that come from your backgrounds that get it, that know that there's something really unique going on here. That's really meaningful.

Mark Cleveland (21:01)
Yeah, these are humans in organizations. An organization is a biology, I think. The leader, the thoughts that are coursing through that organization are the electrical pulses of life. And we want to spend our life energy with people we just want to spend our life energy with. The numbers, they do matter, but they're like an outcome, right? They're secondary, aren't they?

John (21:22)
That's it. Yeah. The partner at our private equity company, he often uses the phrase, "we invest in people that we want to do life with." And I think that's such a profound way to look at it. Because life's too short to, even if you make a lot of money, life's too short to do business with people you hate and don't want to be around and don't respect. It's not worth it. Do life with people you want to do life with.

Mark Cleveland (21:52)
There you go. You should make a t-shirt company out of that.

John (21:54)
Yeah.

Mark Cleveland (21:55)
Do you have a mindfulness practice, John? Is there a discipline that you use in your daily approach to problem solving in life?

John (22:03)
You know, I've thought about that. I don't have a particular thing that I would point out. I do, you know, I do find exercising and doing yoga and things like that help me to kind of maintain the right frame of mind for work. I've tried meditation and I haven't found that to be something that just resonates with me. I have a lot of energy. I think I have a hard time sometimes turning things off. But I think exercising and things like that help me to kind of maintain the proper framework and be able to kind of get away from work when it's necessary.

Mark Cleveland (22:38)
So getting away from work, but if you love it and you're having joy and that's a great experience, maybe you don't want to get away from work.

John (22:45)
Yeah, you know, I think happiness to me-- happiness comes from achieving your values, properly chosen values, and work is a big part of that. For me, work doesn't bring me stress, work doesn't, I don't often feel like I need the get away from work. I love what I do. I love the people that I work with. I'm extraordinarily fortunate to have that opportunity. I know not everybody does. So when you're getting that kind of joy out of what you do, I don't ever feel like I need to turn it off and get away.

Mark Cleveland (23:18)
So I was interested to hear what John Cerasuolo might say to his younger self. What are some of the lessons that you just love to rewind the clock and say, hey, Junior.

John (23:26)
You-- Yeah. I think the one thing I would probably tell myself is don't worry as much about failure. Don't, don't be afraid to even to be embarrassed to say something that's, that's wrong. I think I found myself at a young age. I was very hesitant sometimes to speak out because I didn't have confidence sometimes in my, in my thoughts. And, um, and that is one of the things I learned in the military, but I think I would have loved to have had somebody share that with me at an earlier age. You don't have to succeed at everything you do. In fact, if you succeeded at everything you do, you're doing something wrong because you're not reaching far enough. So don't be afraid to fail. Failure is a part of life and it's a massive educator. Uh, and so, so get out there and try things that you, you think are beyond your reach and you'll benefit from the things you learn in the process of failing.

Mark Cleveland (24:34)
I found that most entrepreneurs suffer from one thing that I think is pretty common, and it's that we compare ourselves. I think it's cultural here in our country, but you know, we're driven, we have examples and mentors and people who bring us along and we compare. And I'm wondering, I know that you have acquired really, really small companies that have a gem, a leader, something that the match was perfect, and then some fairly large companies.

John (25:08)
Yeah, a key element of our success is these guys learning from each other and realizing and appreciating that no matter how good you are, you've got something to learn from everybody. We're fortunate that the few big companies in our portfolio, one in particular is led by someone who is an extraordinary teacher and has been of immeasurable benefit to the smaller businesses in our portfolio by being able to share some of the experiences he's had that they've had yet to go through. I think it's, you, again, if you, if you bring together folks that have, that are open to learning and that have a teaching spirit, all that takes care of itself. Cause everybody has something to learn and everybody has something to teach. And, if you can find a group of people that are open to new ideas and care about the folks around them and want to help them out, then it all takes care of itself.

Mark Cleveland (26:04)
What are the challenges of running an organization throughout the Southeast that's recruiting in different markets? Talk about talent. What is the talent challenge these days and how are you overcoming it?

John (26:15)
There's two particular challenges there. One is something you might've read about in the paper and that's the challenge of the trades. There are just simply are not enough people that know how to do things from welding to fixing an air conditioning unit, to plumbing, to electrical work. There's a shortage and that pool of employees is aging. And for too long, I think, young people were discouraged from entering the trades and were encouraged that everybody should go to college. And I think there was a gap because for so many years, people were just discouraged from pursuing great careers in the trades. So that's one talent gap. And we attacked that by being the - our goal is to be the employer of choice in every market that we're in. So the industry is going to have that challenge. We want to avoid that challenge by being the company that everybody wants to work for. And if we can accomplish that, we'll attract talent from other geographies or competitors and avoid the difficulties that a lot of the industry is facing. But I think the more... the more pressing challenge developing leaders. And that is taking the talent throughout an organization and mentoring and developing in them a spirit and an understanding of how they can become good leaders. Because organizations don't have one or two or three leaders. Organizations are full of leaders. And everybody is leading by example in everything they do every day, whether it's your peer that's in a truck next to you, or it's the guy running the warehouse, or it's the general manager of the location. And, and I think that's really the, that's really the, development challenge that we have. and, and it's, it's very important. We spent a lot of time on it. And I think, again, I think that's one of the things that over time differentiates organizations that are part of Leap.

Mark Cleveland (28:21)
So John, I'm going to pop over here to the rapid fire section because I enjoy trying to catch you off guard, but I know I can't. Tell me what's the last book that you've read?

John (28:26)
Ha ha. Ha ha. All right, so I, yeah, I listened to your podcast. So I knew these questions were coming. the last book I read was a book called Fossil Future, which I highly recommend, written by a named Alex Epstein. And, it's about energy and energy policy. And it was fascinating.

Mark Cleveland (28:48)
I have read that book. Yeah, that's a absolutely rewinding of how we should be looking at energy as a global source of human flourishing and the cost of energy and the portability of certain types of energies. Yeah, I'm going to jump on the endorsement train and tell everybody to go get that book for sure. What's the best gift you've ever received?

John (29:15)
That one's easy. So on my 60th birthday, my three kids and their spouses arranged a week long vacation with my grandkids in Mexico. And we had just an absolutely amazing time together, which is really hard to do because they're spread over pretty big geography, as you know. And I can't imagine a better gift than that.

Mark Cleveland (29:37)
So I've seen you get and earn awards in the different companies that you have led and the teams have won those awards. What award, what honor have you received or have you and your teams received that you're the most proud of?

John (29:58)
Oh my goodness, wow. That's one I wasn't ready for. So I personally, it was some of the recognition and awards in the military. There's something special about, qualifying to be a Surface Warfare Officer was a big achievement. And some of the recognition and awards in the military. Those are just the ceremony around those and the intensity around those. Those certainly stand out. As a team, I think the most valuable recognition honestly comes from people like you and a friend, another mutual friend, Joe Scarlett, people who have come to our meetings, seen what we're doing, and then share with me some of the things you and Joe and others have shared about how they respect what we're building. I think that kind of recognition, much more so than being in the Fast 50 or the, you know, industry kind of awards. We won a big award in the security industry for being the best security company in the country one year. Those are great, but there's something about a genuine comment from someone who really is looking at your business and knows what good businesses are all about that says, hey, you guys are doing something special. That kind of recognition, I think, is the most meaningful.

Mark Cleveland (31:20)
What is your North Star?

John (31:23)
All right. So I think I mentioned this earlier. I think an important part of life is choosing values that you want to achieve. And I think my North Star is the emotional response, the happiness I get from achieving those values. And a well lived life should result in a lot of happiness and for me that is if I had to come up with something that was a north star I think that's it.

Mark Cleveland (31:49)
That's great. I think happiness is underestimated. It's actually in our constitution. We have the right to pursue happiness. Let's pursue it with all our gusto, right? Have a great day.

John (31:56)
And pursue that. Absolutely. Yeah, it's very important. We prioritize happiness, right? So we want our partners to be happy. That's your most productive when you're doing something that you enjoy and you're happy. And a, and a big part of being happy is having a great family life. So we stress that, you know, we are in a, a long race, not a sprint. So we do not expect our leaders to neglect their family for the sake of a sprint in a business to a finish line. Family is very important and we talk about that a lot. I've been with my team a long time. We know our families very well. We have team meetings at my mom's place where my mom cooks a big Italian meal for us. I mean, it's that kind of kind of environment where

Mark Cleveland (32:43)
(chuckle)

John (32:47)
everybody understands that's important. So no one ever hesitates to miss a meeting for a kid's baseball game or whatever the case might be, because we all recognize that's an important part of what makes our organization what it is. And it's a critical part of making sure we get the best out of everybody.

Mark Cleveland (33:04)
So that's a thing, right? That's a thing that got that company you acquired successful. That's a thing that you are perpetuating in your culture and in your acquisition strategy. What steps are you taking to make sure that you don't lose that thing as you scale?

John (33:20)
I think as long as we leaders in the organization model the kind of behaviors that we're professing to adhere to, as long as people see that we're living that when someone comes into the organization, they get that and it's, it's not, it's not a challenge for them to adapt to this to this new culture. That to me, that is the biggest part of leadership is modeling the behaviors that you that you profess. I've been around way too many leaders that talk a great game. And then when you see them in their personal life, their behaviors or anything, but what they say they believe in. People sniff that out really, really quickly. So I think if you do that well, you can, you have a fighting chance to really build and maintain that strong culture in spite of rapid growth.

Mark Cleveland (34:09)
So what does a typical day look like for you? You're the CEO of a company that's acquiring and growing and building family-centric organizations. What does a typical day look like for John Cerasuolo?

John (34:22)
So I'm really fortunate because of the strength of the team that I have around me, I am able to focus a significant portion of my time on building these relationships in the industry, working and connecting with business owners across the Southeast. But largely just because I have a team that is really solid on the operating side and on the disciplines and marketing and human resources and technology, where I don't have to spend a lot of my time deeply involved in those areas. So I travel a good bit. I'm on the road a lot, meeting owners and a lot of time working on deals and negotiating deals. then visiting our teams and getting in front of these owners, especially as we're going through the diligence process and the integration process to just ensure that I'm, I am representing well what it is that we profess to hold dear to us, right, our principles we run this business by.

Mark Cleveland (35:20)
So almost every one of the organizations that you've acquired were a startup at some point. You in most definitions as launching in 2022, you'd be a startup. This is your first startup. So what have you learned that you wish you'd learned earlier? And that you now see that other startup operators have a superpower in and how did you adjust?

John (35:48)
I'd say that if there's one thing I learned, it's the importance of picking your financial partner carefully. We're extraordinarily fortunate. So we have what's called the family desk, a private equity company that's essentially a wealthy family investment vehicle. That's our financial partner. They are a principled organization that aligns absolutely with the principles that we run our business on. And, and that has been and will be critically important to our long-term success. And it's not easy to do, because you know, it's hard to find money to start a business. I learned that, this was the first time I had ever had to raise money. I'd never done that before. And it's challenging. We talked to a lot of investors about our ideas and it was not easy to get someone ready to write a check. But the important thing I think we learned was not going with the first person that said, yeah, I'm interested in investing in you. As hard as it is to ask that next question of let's make sure we're aligned before we decide to jump into this venture together. That's the first advice I give to anyone that's starting down the path that we began just a few years ago.

Mark Cleveland (37:09)
What question did you think that I would ask that I have not? And what's your answer?

John (37:14)
Maybe something like what's the, what's the number one factor in the success I've had across my career. And my answer to that would be, and you probably can gather this from the conversation thus far: It's surrounding myself with the best talent available. And in fact, I always gave this advice to my kids when they were growing up that the most important decisions you make are the friends you pick. That's what's going to determine in a large part your path in life and I think it's the same thing in business. Your success more than anything is going to be determined by the quality of the people you surround yourself with and I could not be more fortunate, from our investors through to our leadership team to now the partners in all these businesses to have surrounded myself with exceptional people that I learn from every day and that that bring me the kind of joy that I had always hoped I would achieve in life.

Mark Cleveland (38:11)
That's terrific. And what I didn't ask you that I really do want to know is what's on your nightstand? What are you what are you trying to feed that brain of yours with next?

John (38:22)
So actually, I've just started to reread a book that I've read a few times already. My favorite book. This probably won't be a surprise to you. It's a book called Atlas Shrugged. And yeah, I've read it a number of times, but it's kind of book that I try to keep in rotation every few years because I find it's just incredibly motivating to me and it helps me to make sure I'm identifying my values correctly. So that's the next book on my stack.

Mark Cleve land (38:54)
Another big victory for me because I've read that book and it has the very first book review I ever submitted was after I read Atlas Shrugged and it must have been when Amazon was 10 weeks old. It was a long time ago, but what a spectacular book. I mean, it's a big, thick read. You got to be ready for it. But there's some lessons in there that I think

John (39:15)
It is.

Mark Cleveland (39:18)
Deserve to be explored by our culture in great detail. Well, John, what did you learn about yourself today? that that you're

John (39:25)
You know, honestly, going, going through these questions and taking notes really did force me to think about some things. Even this stuff we didn't cover, it was worthwhile. So, um, yeah, I, You know, I think what it does, it kind of reinforces when you, when you, when you do this and are forced to talk about it, it reinforces stuff that you kind of know, but it's always kind of subliminal. And then when you say, you know, I, I talk to my teams about happiness. I started the last leadership meeting out talking about happiness, you know. Expressing that and trying to convey that in a business, you know, environment or in a discussion like this, it forces you to think through it and it just makes it more tangible and real when you do.

Mark Cleveland (40:10)
Yeah, I was asking a question the other day of myself and you, you you just showed me my, my process questions to help you know, to the parallel entrepreneur think through maybe what we'd like to talk about. But one of the questions I'm asking is why is it so difficult for entrepreneurs to be heart led? And I think spending some time in major corporate America myself, you international global organizations, they are run by different types of people than entrepreneurial organizations are, right? And yet it's still hard for an entrepreneur to be heart led, to start to open your meeting with happiness as the topic. Here's our agenda. We're going to talk about happiness.

John (40:56)
Yeah. Yep.

Mark Cleveland (40:58)
Why is that the case?

John (41:00)
Yeah, but... You know, I don't, that's a really good question. I don't know. There's not enough people that I think center their life around those values. I mean, you do, you you convey it in everything that you do. I feel that way. Yeah, a lot of folks, I don't know, just don't find that

Mark Cleveland (41:14)
Thank you.

John (41:19)
joy that comes from work or don't appreciate it or don't understand it well. Yeah, I don't know. That's a really good question though. Why not?

Mark Cleveland (41:28)
Yeah, why not? I think there's definitely a book on somebody's future nightstand right there. I really appreciate you. I love you, brother. So good. So good to spend some time with you.

John (41:30)
There's a book idea there somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, love you too Mark. Thanks for inviting me. I'm excited to see the success you're having. It's great. And let's do a deal together too.

Mark Cleveland (41:48)
Let's make it happen, Captain. Bye.

John (41:50)
All right, take care.

Mark Cleveland (41:51)
Ladies and gentlemen, go find out more and follow whatever Leap Partners is doing because it's led by a tremendous man who's reaching out to grab the best opportunity life has every day.